Curse

floor · May 03, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorn Xarann

My guild has gotten to below rank 350 without running any traditional meta. Oops?

This is probably why we aren't top 100 right? Right?

This is going to make me sound very elitist i feel, but let me just say now if that is the case im not trying to be ;P

In the current dead world of Guild Wars GvG, a brand new guild who wins 1 game is top 500. If you win like 5 games, you are top 350. Achieving rank 350 is no major achievement as such, as almost every team without henchmen can get rank 300 running whatever build u like to be honest. Its actually entirely possible to get to champ range (1200 rating) with just BYOB.

But the thing to remember is this: its possible to win with byob/other builds. But its EASIER to win with meta builds. The bottom line is that you cannot reach the top of this game without running meta bars. If you are happy to just win some games, then lose some games and have fun whilst sitting at rank 300, thats brilliant

unfortunately many ppl like to try and win EVERY game because they are aiming for rank 1 and a gold cape, and honestly this is just not possible without meta.

Sorn Xarann · May 03, 2011, 08:10 PM // 20:10

We like being different :P

Valid points throughout though. It certainly would be easier, and it has not been just winning 5 matches. We're on the ladder, check it out.

Still Number One · May 03, 2011, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

This is going to make me sound very elitist i feel, but let me just say now if that is the case im not trying to be ;P

In the current dead world of Guild Wars GvG, a brand new guild who wins 1 game is top 500. If you win like 5 games, you are top 350. Achieving rank 350 is no major achievement as such, as almost every team without henchmen can get rank 300 running whatever build u like to be honest. Its actually entirely possible to get to champ range (1200 rating) with just BYOB.

But the thing to remember is this: its possible to win with byob/other builds. But its EASIER to win with meta builds. The bottom line is that you cannot reach the top of this game without running meta bars. If you are happy to just win some games, then lose some games and have fun whilst sitting at rank 300, thats brilliant

unfortunately many ppl like to try and win EVERY game because they are aiming for rank 1 and a gold cape, and honestly this is just not possible without meta.

this + the fact the only true way to measure just how effective something is in today's game is through mAT performance. If you are a good guild, you will consistently do well in the mAT. If you are a bad guild, you will consistently do poorly. If a guild made top 50 but never did a single AT, maybe you would start grabbing some attention, but for the most part you are probably either some dead hour rating farmer or someone running a gimmick that could easily be specced for and beaten in an mAT (which is the reason bloodspike/spam never won a monthly).

If you make the claim that your guild can get silver trims running non-meta stuff, then you can claim you are good and your build is good. Top 300 was something you could reach three years ago running BYOB, and the game had a lot more competition 3 years ago.

Selket · May 03, 2011, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorn Xarann

We like being different :P

Valid points throughout though. It certainly would be easier, and it has not been just winning 5 matches. We're on the ladder, check it out.

Being different is fine, but trying to back up non-meta as viable with a negative win-loss record just doesn't hold up.

The level of skill on the ladder is so low, sub optimal builds will certainly be fine on the ladder if the people playing are good enough such as byob.

Meta builds exist because there's a finite amount of skills that don't suck and of those there's an optimal combination for them, that's all there is to it. There are occasional deviations, but they trade one positive for another.

Terrible Surgeon · May 04, 2011, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

This is going to make me sound very elitist i feel, but let me just say now if that is the case im not trying to be ;P

In the current dead world of Guild Wars GvG, a brand new guild who wins 1 game is top 500. If you win like 5 games, you are top 350. Achieving rank 350 is no major achievement as such, as almost every team without henchmen can get rank 300 running whatever build u like to be honest. Its actually entirely possible to get to champ range (1200 rating) with just BYOB.

But the thing to remember is this: its possible to win with byob/other builds. But its EASIER to win with meta builds. The bottom line is that you cannot reach the top of this game without running meta bars. If you are happy to just win some games, then lose some games and have fun whilst sitting at rank 300, thats brilliant

unfortunately many ppl like to try and win EVERY game because they are aiming for rank 1 and a gold cape, and honestly this is just not possible without meta.

Thats way off the mark. The majority of the time i will agree that meta wins. However, there have been many times where a team has created a specific counter to a meta that obliterates the opposing team. You can do that in aT's and MAT very easily. Just look at the most recent gvg finals, that was a good show of how good players can run a simple spike build and almost win a Gold trim VS the current derv dominated stuff.

Does this demonstrate the laziness of an individual to not take the time and try to be good and different while also designing a team and/or build to win? I think so. In all honesty most people are too bad to design any builds by themselves or they are to lazy to and they just run what they see winning.

Really, when you have a large class update like the dervish update there are 100's if not 1000's of builds that could be tested out. However, the AoG and AoB and other builds were set as "the best" within 24 hrs of the update being released. Therefore, i believe there are many builds yet to be uncovered in many classes that are viable and strong, but players just use what they see winning on observe instead of trying to be creative.

floor · May 04, 2011, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Thats way off the mark. The majority of the time i will agree that meta wins. However, there have been many times where a team has created a specific counter to a meta that obliterates the opposing team. You can do that in aT's and MAT very easily. Just look at the most recent gvg finals, that was a good show of how good players can run a simple spike build and almost win a Gold trim VS the current derv dominated stuff.

Does this demonstrate the laziness of an individual to not take the time and try to be good and different while also designing a team and/or build to win? I think so. In all honesty most people are too bad to design any builds by themselves or they are to lazy to and they just run what they see winning.

Really, when you have a large class update like the dervish update there are 100's if not 1000's of builds that could be tested out. However, the AoG and AoB and other builds were set as "the best" within 24 hrs of the update being released. Therefore, i believe there are many builds yet to be uncovered in many classes that are viable and strong, but players just use what they see winning on observe instead of trying to be creative.

Im not sure how familiar with current gvg you are, but i assure you that the A/P spike used in the final is a meta build and not something they just randomly invented, [rawr]/LaG smurf run that build several times a week and are very well practised with it.

GvG currently has essentially 3 different builds which could be considered "meta" which are triple dervish, A/P spike, or some variation of a split build. So claiming that A/P is a new and innovative build is wrong as people have been using it for like 3-4 years ^^ The only build i can think of which has been "non meta" and actually achieved relative success over the last few years, has been quad necro. I should point out though that quad necro did not really invent any new necro bars, it just incorporated several existing bars into the same team build. So it was a new team build, but all the skill bars had been seen before.

Creating a new "skill bar" and then going out there and winning a gold cape with it is about as likely as being struck by lightning.

The reason ppl believe in meta builds so strongly and wont change is not the fault of the players for being lazy at all. Some skills have been buffed so that they are unbelievably strong, for instance Mind Blast, that u really have no option but to take these skills cos they are just too good. Poor balancing over the years has reduced the pool of good skills greatly and this has lead to "meta builds" where every team is forced to run the same build, or accept defeat.

Jeydra · May 04, 2011, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

Creating a new "skill bar" and then going out there and winning a gold cape with it is about as likely as being struck by lightning.

It's happened, e.g. [NOW] won gold with the then meta-shifting E/N Mind Shock Ele. And I think dR won gold with Dwayna Dervs that nobody could've foreseen coming?

Pool of usable skills have definitely shrunk though, nowhere clearer than RC. You can't not have the skill now, which removes Life Sheath, Aura of Faith, Peace and Harmony, etc from play.

Liability · May 04, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorn Xarann

My guild has gotten to below rank 350 without running any traditional meta. Oops?

This is probably why we aren't top 100 right? Right?

leet ftw but afaik you do run fairly meta spike builds.

floor · May 04, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's happened, e.g. [NOW] won gold with the then meta-shifting E/N Mind Shock Ele. And I think dR won gold with Dwayna Dervs that nobody could've foreseen coming?

Pool of usable skills have definitely shrunk though, nowhere clearer than RC. You can't not have the skill now, which removes Life Sheath, Aura of Faith, Peace and Harmony, etc from play.

im not entirely convinced that NOW's mind shock ele was completely new, NOW only ever ran spike so im sure it was hardly a suprise for their opponents. dR is a valid point though.

You have to consider though that both of these gold capes were won a long time ago, 2 and a half years for NOW, and over 3 years for dR. Since then practically every bar imaginable has been tried and tested. In the here and now its almost impossible to create a decent new bar, in years gone by yes it was possible but unfortunately right now the skill pool is at an all time low.

vinoth · May 05, 2011, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Some combinations of teams in randomly matched random arenas are flipping op. I once had a team (me axe), ( a dervish), an elementalist, and a ritualist ( with warmonger and 1 heal skill). We did 10 in RA - then moved to TA. We rolled everything there, got till 50 and then i made a mistake with target selection and we died.

These guys were not the bane of RA/TA but just mediocre players with some innovative bars. We rolled absolutely everything.

GvG should not be based around what bar a player has to play rather than what bar a player can play.

I would still play axe war in any meta, just cuz I play that optimally.

deathy · May 06, 2011, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

im not entirely convinced that NOW's mind shock ele was completely new, NOW only ever ran spike so im sure it was hardly a suprise for their opponents. dR is a valid point though.

You have to consider though that both of these gold capes were won a long time ago, 2 and a half years for NOW, and over 3 years for dR. Since then practically every bar imaginable has been tried and tested. In the here and now its almost impossible to create a decent new bar, in years gone by yes it was possible but unfortunately right now the skill pool is at an all time low.

lol...

dR's build was an incredibly heavy spec against mistral edge's famous sineptitude, and didn;t see that much play after. Mistral edges build on the other hand was pretty meta changing and lead to the vod change.

http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/mAT/2008/April/58/

leads to

http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/mAT/2008/July/212/

On topic, there are still new builds to be had, but due to powercreep, and the fact that the game has been out for a long time now, means they are few and far between, and usually get found when whatever a skill update buffs works well with the new bar.

infi · May 06, 2011, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathy

lol...

dR's build was an incredibly heavy spec against mistral edge's famous sineptitude, and didn;t see that much play after. Mistral edges build on the other hand was pretty meta changing and lead to the vod change.

http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/mAT/2008/April/58/

leads to

http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/mAT/2008/July/212/

On topic, there are still new builds to be had, but due to powercreep, and the fact that the game has been out for a long time now, means they are few and far between, and usually get found when whatever a skill update buffs works well with the new bar.

You are wrong. There wasn't any transform from [Me]'s build till [KMD]'s one. KMD couldn't split and tried to copy [rawr] every time to beat them. But it didn't happen. I am sorry, Mitch.

I agree with your 2nd part. People just too lazy trying out new tactics and there is no way implementing any new build without proper solution how to play it. Therefore everyone just runs triple derv and feels happy.

2 floor

I can't agree with your words. There are only few effective options but even between them you can make a good GvG build. it just takes time to realize how it works and it needs to be tested as well.

deathy · May 06, 2011, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

You are wrong. There wasn't any transform from [Me]'s build till [KMD]'s one. KMD couldn't split and tried to copy [rawr] every time to beat them. But it didn't happen. I am sorry, Mitch.

My point was that the idea of not just thinking about VOD, but literally solely planning for it, and having a build that just stayed alive, then farmed npcs, was shown to be very effective, at a time when most guilds weren't really doing that. I'm not going to argue about who copied who, as its irrelevant. You would be stupid not to run that kind of build in that MAT if you wanted to win, and most guilds did. Leading to one of the most boring mats ever, and a pretty swift change to VOD.

floor · May 06, 2011, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathy

lol...

dR's build was an incredibly heavy spec against mistral edge's famous sineptitude, and didn;t see that much play after. Mistral edges build on the other hand was pretty meta changing and lead to the vod change.

http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/mAT/2008/April/58/

leads to

http://www.gw-memorial.net/builds/mAT/2008/July/212/

On topic, there are still new builds to be had, but due to powercreep, and the fact that the game has been out for a long time now, means they are few and far between, and usually get found when whatever a skill update buffs works well with the new bar.

a) dR's build was really only a good show of innovative thinking, specing heavily vs one specific opponent. Essentially its a gimmick build that many people might refer to as a build wars. It would never become meta, because quite simply its only useful vs [Me]. If you cant run a build on ladder, and be successful with it vs unknown opponents, u simply cannot consider it to be a good meta build for general play.

b) Ur last comment u are just stating the obvious. Clearly when skill updates happen ppl use new builds. That does not mean there are lots of builds within the current skill pool waiting to be discovered. When better skills become available, or current skills are made worse, its obvious that people change their skill bars. Its not rocket science is it...

deathy · May 06, 2011, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

a) dR's build was really only a good show of innovative thinking, specing heavily vs one specific opponent. Essentially its a gimmick build that many people might refer to as a build wars. It would never become meta, because quite simply its only useful vs [Me]. If you cant run a build on ladder, and be successful with it vs unknown opponents, u simply cannot consider it to be a good meta build for general play.

b) Ur last comment u are just stating the obvious. Clearly when skill updates happen ppl use new builds. That does not mean there are lots of builds within the current skill pool waiting to be discovered. When better skills become available, or current skills are made worse, its obvious that people change their skill bars. Its not rocket science is it...

For point a, I entirely agree, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

For point b, I was making the more subtle point that I'm sure there are bars or skills out there that are good (and new), but just not in the current meta, and when the meta gets shifted they may see play in a meta that suits them. Skill updates are rare enough, that the meta updates pretty rarely too (it's been triple melee for how long?), so that some things just get forgotten for the new best thing.

It's cakey btw, hi xx

floor · May 06, 2011, 12:48 PM // 12:48

hi there! <3

infi · May 06, 2011, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathy

My point was that the idea of not just thinking about VOD, but literally solely planning for it, and having a build that just stayed alive, then farmed npcs, was shown to be very effective, at a time when most guilds weren't really doing that. I'm not going to argue about who copied who, as its irrelevant. You would be stupid not to run that kind of build in that MAT if you wanted to win, and most guilds did. Leading to one of the most boring mats ever, and a pretty swift change to VOD.

Anet cut entire VoD instead of fixing npcs ai. that was their mistake. there are no doubts.

Quote:

Ur last comment u are just stating the obvious. Clearly when skill updates happen ppl use new builds. That does not mean there are lots of builds within the current skill pool waiting to be discovered. When better skills become available, or current skills are made worse, its obvious that people change their skill bars. Its not rocket science is it...

This doesn't change the fact that [rawr] invented 2 builds (spike with 2 paras and hexes with me/n splitter) and won 2 mats with them without linking to current update changes.

I personally was a part of the guild which brought 2 gimmicks (they were built on skills out of meta) into play. We were the 1st who took triple R/A build out of ha and modified it for GvG. I guess everyone remember what happen.

At the 2nd time we used double smite monks with WoC and PoD which gave us enough power to reach final.

It just takes some time.

Our Virus · May 20, 2011, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Easily my favorite non meta team for HA is dual-DA paras with caster spike. "Pro" teams using hella dervs call u noob bc they can't kill you with their godly bars. And it uses paras so stupid people nvr run it bc they see a paragon and think OMG WHAT A FAIL. Gigi buildwars

NiloN · May 21, 2011, 12:15 AM // 00:15

floor speaks truth, shit balancing leads to only certain used skills, if this game was balanced then every single skill would see skill usage.

this game will never ever be balanced thats a fact and it never has been.

Dirame · May 22, 2011, 10:35 PM // 22:35

The onl time you can be creative in this game is when anet changes how a skill works because its basically a new skill that no one has found a use for yet. I could say you missed your chance with the dervish, I believe people have come up with the best builds for that profession. Annoying as they are, dervishes have had a very good series of creative builds before it all went meta but yeah, simply put; if you want creativity, you need new material.